Feb 12, 2009

On Loot

BigBearButt posted something that really struck a chord with me today:
I wasn’t planning on rolling on anything when I went in. I’d rather not roll on loot until I feel that I’ve done MY best to be at the max I can be first. If other people did their best to gear up and I didn’t, why should I get their only possible upgrades?

He was talking about his hunter that has been brought along to a couple Naxx raids which he hadn't played in a while and felt bad that he hadn't done his best to gear up in preparation for serious raiding.

But his loot philosophy is one that I wish more people would follow. I have no problem losing a roll to someone who needs an upgrade. I do have a problem when someone wins a roll and they are able to replace a level 76 quest reward item with a 25 man Naxx item that I needed. Also, while I don't mind passing to regular raiders that I run with, I hate being in PUGs or joint efforts and asked to pass an item for the "good of the raid."

Hypothetical: I'm running with Tier 7 shoulders, Tier 7.5 drops from Loatheb. I win the roll and I'm asked to pass to a Death Knight in a level 77 green item because "he needs it more than me." Well, whose fault is that? If he were sporting a heroic shoulder piece or something similar, I wouldn't really have a problem, but because he's slacked off and couldn't be bothered to run heroics or spend gold on the auction house, why should I have to pass a piece of loot to him? I've done my homework - I had the absolute best items available to me before I entered Naxx (with the exception of my wand which refused to drop in Azjol'Nerub - and ask around, I ran it a LOT). So because I worked my ass off to get the Deathchill Cloak, a Titanium Spellshock Necklace, a Signet of Kirin Tor, etc., I get penalized because you're lazy? HATE IT.

Now you might be thinking I'm a loot whore. I'd like to think I'm not. I've passed plenty of items and I've gotten lucky on some rolls (Valorous Leggings, I'm looking at you). But I've put the work in for my items and I think I deserve an upgrade every now and again.

Another issue I've run into now that we're running 25 man Naxx is that I really don't need much from there. Sure, there's some nice, marginal upgrades. But on our last run, clearing two wings, one item dropped I wanted. Of course, I was outrolled. The problem here is, I'm being outrolled on a Tier piece because now that we have 25 people, there's more people to roll against. Even though I didn't roll once leading up to that point. This is where I think a DKP or EP/GP system would come in nicely for me. I could save points on drops which are of no interest to me and spend them on the very rare drop that does interest me.

This week, we venture back into Naxxramas (25 man) and we'll probably do the same two wings again and I'll probably have another shot at my Tier 7.5 shoulders (best in slot). And I'll probably lose them again. Now, there will be one less person rolling against me since he got them last week, but there's still plenty of overpowered Death Knights and druids running with us. So even though I might not see any other item throughout the whole instance that I want, I'll have the same chance as everyone else at those shoulderpads.

Now, technically, you only get one item a run, but in the case of the undergeared mage we ran with, he got a lot of items by default last run, and now this run won't need to roll on them and will probably win the tier shoulders that I want.

Yeah, I know I'm bitching a bunch, but it just upsets me at times where I get just one chance to roll on loot and my dice forsake me and I've spent four hours without anything to show for it. Other than gearing up other players who may or may not run with us in the weeks to follow.

Last week, of our 25 man group, there were 4 mages, 4 death knights, 2 rogues, and 4 druids. So that's 14 of the 25 people that are going to roll against me on Tier 7.5 shoulders. So my chances of winning are slim.

((Note to readers in my group - if you win, DO NOT pass to me because of my bitching - I don't want to win an item that way. But perhaps we do need to discuss loot rules further :))


Vetarra said...

I understand your frustration Tid, believe me, I tend to share it.

As for loot rules, I do agree with you, effort given should be effort rewarded. And while I do believe in the concept of 'the good of the raid', it's a fragile thing, because it depends on every member putting in the most effort they can, which reduces the problems to simply who will get the highest dps increase from this piece. But unfortunately, nothing is that static and easy to quantify, and there will always be those who are carried rather then shouldering the burden. However, at least with our 25, we are very aware of the limitations of loot systems, and if issues come up, we'll do our best to have steps to deal with it, whether a new loot system, or a firm talking to. :-)

As for the 25, that first run was more of a test, to dip our toes in the water to see if we can even get it to fly. Ara's surprise trip out of state has canceled this week's 25, and with the pugs, it's too difficult to constantly be refreshing loot rules and standards every single raid because half of the raid is being replaced each week. It's hard to rely on a history based attendance system(most loot systems) unless most of the team is relatively solid. Once we have a semifirm group, we can approach loot with a better setup. Naxx is really only a starting point for a 25 man, as Ulduar is coming, and will likely be where loot management will take a higher priority.

And you know most of the team is ridiculously stubborn about ignoring the 'don't pass it to me' pleas. ;-)

Papaya Bunny said...

(I found your blog on someone else's btw, if you're wondering).

I guess I agree and disagree with this. While yes, it's great when people put the work into gearing before raids, as everyone should be doing (and yet 10 man Naxx and sometimes even 25 seem to have turned into an easy way to bypass heroic and crafted farming for many), not everyone does.

When I started doing Naxx, I did 1 10 man then went straight to 25 the next week. I was an officer in my guild at the time and I actually attempted to get the gm/raid leader to enforce a "bigger upgrade" rule which he did right before I left, but I don't know if that stuck around or not. Mainly because while I was still running around in 6/8 t6 there were people in the raid trying to upgrade their t7 to t7.5 for that extra 25 dps.

I guess a big thing to do, which would be more difficult than anything else, is to see how much work the people are really putting into it. Do you ever see them in 10 man raids or heroics, or are they hanging around in Dalaran all the time? At this point, if you're still running around in greens, there's really no reason for it anymore though.

Blake said...

Thanks for the comment Kal. I realize my shoulder upgrade from Tier 7 to Tier 7.5 is a bad example, as I'd gladly pass the Tier 7.5 shoulders to Matnocuido in our guild because I know he's put in the time and effort in getting ready and he's always on time, buffed, and good to go for 10 man raids.

I don't have a problem passing those items. I guess what irks me the most though is that since I have spent so much time working on my gear, striving to do the best DPS I can (since it's the ONLY thing I can do), there's really very few upgrades out there for me. So when I do see an upgrade I'd like, I'm rolling against 10 other people who probably have gotten upgrades over the prior weeks whereas I haven't seen any.

Since no one tracks our loots, I don't expect those people rolling against me to remember that I haven't gotten anything for two weeks, but it sticks with me and just annoys me a bit, hence the rant.

I'm writing up a new post right now since I did get some amazing loot last night (best in slot chest piece), so I'm quite happy right now. Of course, for that piece, I was the only one that rolled on it. I know Matnocuido could have, but he was nice enough not to since he had just gotten an upgrade to the Gown of Blaumeux a week or two earlier.